Ins and Outs for Authors Seeking Agents

EmpoweredAuthorS01E32DavidMorrris

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

agent, author, publishers, book, publishing, editor, manuscript, big, indie authors, people, acknowledgments, nonfiction, find, deal, important, proposal, empowered, platform, self-publishing, podcast

Introduction (various voices) 00:03

Welcome to the Empowered Author podcast.

Discussion, tips, insights and advice from those who’ve been there, done that, helping you write, publish and market your nonfiction book. 

Being an author is something that you’ve got to take seriously.

I’m proud I’ve written a book.

What does the reader need, first? What does the reader need, second?

What happens if you start writing your book before you identify your “why”? What’s the problem with that?

You’re an indie author, you take the risk; you reap the rewards; you are in charge of the decisions. You’re the head of that business. 

Every emotion you’re feeling when you’re writing is felt by every other writer.

The Empowered Author podcast. Your podcast hosts are Boni and John Wagner-Stafford of Ingenium Books.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 00:53

Hello. A common desire for authors – indie, aspiring or otherwise – is to find a literary agent that will help them secure a publishing deal maybe even with one of the “Big Five” or New York publishing houses. But are agents still relevant in this digital self-publishing age? What does an agent do? How do you prepare yourself before you start your search for an agent? And then where do you find one? That is what we’re exploring in this episode of the Empowered Author podcast and to help us unravel the mystery – or mysteries – we’re joined by David Morris. David is a writer, creative leader, content strategist and accomplished professional with more than 25 years of publishing experience. He holds a Ph.D. in religious studies, and has worked at the executive level for Zondervan, HarperCollins and Guideposts Books. He’s helped both new voices and premier authors in the marketplace shape their messaging and build on their strengths for bigger impact. David, welcome. 

David Morris 01:56

Thank you. Great to be here. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 01:58

Yeah. Thank you so much. Your second time around. We had so much fun the first time, I had to have you back. 

David Morris 02:05

Yeah, yeah. It’s always fun to talk publishing.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 02:08

It’s – it is always fun. Now, today, we want to – I wanted to talk about what I have come in the background to, you know, erroneously called agenting as a verb: doing the thing, representing authors as an agent: which is something that I understand you’re just starting to dip your toes into. But we’ll look at this, if we can, from the perspective of the author. And for those fairly new or still aspiring authors, maybe we lay the groundwork first, which is what is an agent? And what is it that they do?

David Morris 02:47

Yeah, great question. Yeah, you used the word mystery at the beginning here. And I really empathize with everyone in publishing, whoever you are. And it’s, there’s a lot of mystery to it, it would seem. Well, what is an agent? You know, for me – like you said, I’m kind of new at it. But I’ve been on the publishing side most of my professional career. But I’ve worked with a lot of agents and I’m enjoying doing some agenting myself now. Because it’s kind of like one, I’m trying to be the agent that I always wish I had had. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 03:20

Right. 

David Morris 03:21

And I had – I had a lot of great agents to work with. And I’m drawing on those examples. So, you know, at the very basis – basic level – agents know the publishers; they know the editors; they know the different brands and imprints out there. They know the different level of publishers. And, you know, it’s interesting, I think there’s a lot of agents out there that talk to different publishers and some of those publishers don’t realize that that agent’s talking all those different publishers. And agents can learn a lot, I think, too, that way, about publishers and what’s going on in the industry that maybe a lot of other people don’t know. But ultimately, they can help an author find the best imprint match for them. And, you know, at its basic level, strike a really good deal for them. So that means is it a good advance? Is it good royalties? All the terms that go into an agreement: sub rights, audiobook rights. You know, what does that all look like? And does the agent, you know, make sure that – usually they shop it to more than one publisher. And sometimes that means playing publishers off of each other, hopefully in a way of integrity. But, you know, one agent I know well loves to use the phrase, “What’s the fair market value of an author?” You know, that – I think that’s a good word in and of itself. Sometimes though, it can end up being, “Well, who’s the highest bidder?” That’s what it really means.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 05:04

Right.

David Morris 05:05

But it’s often a mistake to go with the highest bidder. And I’ve been involved in plenty of publishing deals where the publisher wins the book because of who they are, because of the level of interest they take in the author – it being the right match – and the agent also knowing that that’s a really good team to work with. There can be a lot of, you know, a lot of transition in personnel in publishing and longevity in this business is so helpful, important. Institutional knowledge is so helpful and important. And that stability of an author who knows you: there’s – I’ve heard so many times authors say, “Well, my editor shifted and my book got lost.” You know, “I – they no longer care about me; they no longer care about my book.” And, you know, to some extent, that’s probably just a typical complaint. But on the other hand, there’s truth to it. Yeah, so I mean, I think that’s kind of like what the basic functions are for an author – for an agent. But you know, long term, I think what an agent provides, that’s – that’s really important. And probably even more so today is that the agent is a – it takes a long view of working with you. So …

Boni Wagner-Stafford 06:30

I was just going to ask about that: it’s not a …

David Morris 06:32

Yeah.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 06:33

… per-book focus the way a publishing deal might be a per-book focus. An agent is – 

David Morris 06:40

Right.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 06:41

Should be there for the career.

David Morris 06:43

Right. Right. They should be looking out for you as a person, as a professional, as an author. They should – they should care about ... I’ll even ask authors like, “Well, so what is – what is your day job really?” You know, “How many kids do you have?” You know, questions you can’t ask as an employer.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 07:02

Right.

David Morris 07:03

You know, “Where do you want to – where can you be five years from now?” Those questions are all important in terms of, well, do you really have time to write? You know, do you have time to promote? You know, what are all the demand? And every author comes at it with a different set of circumstances and it’s not so much that, you know, you can or you can’t; it’s more, how do you do it the best you can? You know, how do you focus the best way? And I think – so I think an agent will be like, “Okay, you know, we got the deal for you. But now, I’m in your corner for the long haul. We’re going to hold the publisher accountable and I’m going to hold you accountable. And I’m going to translate so that you understand what the publisher is asking and the publisher understands what you’re asking and doing.” And I think today, it’s – you know, and that can go for questions, like, you know, the initial marketing of the book, but also long term: you know, what if the sales are flagging and you want to do something to update the book and reintroduce it? You know, and what if, you know, what if you just – what if you want to put out a paperback? What if no audiobook was ever done? What do you do about that? Hopefully there’s been an audiobook done because it really should be done in just about every book these days. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 08:21

Right. Yeah. Exactly. 

David Morris 08:22

In my – in my view. So – and one of the things I really enjoy doing, what I’m trying to specialize in in any agent – in any author-consulting, agenting, publishing work I’m doing is author platforming. Because it’s talking about mystery and an exhausting mystery.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 08:41

Right.

David Morris 08:42

There’s just – there’s just never enough to – there’s always more to do than there is time. And I think that – and often, authors are, you know, they’re just, that whole marketing word is challenging for some authors. And I totally get it. But it just, you know, it really boils down to, do you care enough about your book that you want to tell people about it? And of course you do. So what are the ways to do that, that don’t get you caught up in a lot of technology or the narcissistic side of social media or, or whatever it might be. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 09:23

So …

David Morris 09:24

Shlockiness, sometimes.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 09:25

Yeah. Right. Exactly. From your experience, will an agent get involved in that aspect? Or is that kind of like the agent is looking at playing that middle role, as you talked about, between the publisher holding them accountable, holding the author accountable through the creation of the manuscript and getting it to publish? Is it then incumbent upon the agent to work with the author on that platform, as you’re talking about?

David Morris 09:54

Yeah, I think it is. Not every agent has that skill set or that experience. I think it’s actually quite – it’s really quite important. I think it’s a high priority right now. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 10:07

And it’s in their best interest. Because an agent is going to take a percentage of royalties from sales. So if they’re going to help with the sales …

David Morris 10:15

Yeah.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 10:16

Thinking about it from the publisher’s perspective just for a minute before – and I want to go into some other notions on the agent issue in just a moment – but do publishers prefer to work with agents, do you think? Or do they prefer to work with authors who are not represented by agents?

David Morris 10:42

Yeah, I think their natural inclination is to work with authors that don’t have agents. That’s just, I think the editor’s main – the sort of emotional reaction. But honestly, I think most of the time – at least on the higher level – you prefer an agent because there’s so much translating that needs to get done. There’s so much work that needs to get done. You need more eyes on things. You need more brain power. You need more accountability. So I think that publishers tend to prefer it. I think sometimes there’s a – it’s nice to not have an agent because then a publisher might be able to get a better deal, you know. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 11:21

Right. 

David Morris 11:22

Or it might just – it might just not spiral out of control and have all these other publishers kind of weighing in. And an editor at a publishing house can just work that relationship and deepen that relationship. When it starts to get shopped widely, it’s harder to do that. And you kind of like – there’s like a delay in growing the relationship. But on the other hand, it’s good to shop things. And it’s good to have that translating going on. It’s good to have the advocacy that an agent can provide.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 11:54

I think it’s fair to say that a smaller percentage – I don’t know what percentage; I’ve no idea – but in this digital publishing age, when there’s so much self-publishing going on, there’s so much direct to market happening – which is, on one hand, is a good thing – but are agents and the work they do still relevant today in the age of digital publishing, with indie authors kind of empowered and having the ability to do it themselves?

David Morris 12:27

Sure. I would just say generally, on a lower level, authors who are going to sell, you know, probably under 5,000 copies – like academic authors, for example – a lot of them are not agented. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 12:40

Right. 

David Morris 12:41

And some of that’s because there’s a whole community around academics and academic publishing. It kind of has its own way of creating relationships. But, you know, if you’re angling toward a book deal that’s maybe not even paying you in advance, you know, you may not even want to have an agent involved because they’re going to get their typical 15 percent. Or some variation of that. And that’s – that’s a lot to give up. So I think, I think for new voices or authors that are thinking about DIYing it or going with a small indie imprint, it’s, you know, it’s not as attractive. And you’re in a learning stage and you want to – you want to just try to learn as much as you can and soak in as much as you can about publishing. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 13:33

Right. 

David Morris 13:34

Yeah.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 13:36

Okay. So for those – you know, I often hear from authors and whether they’re aspiring or they’re published, but I kind of liken it to there are those who, despite the realities of the options available through the digital space – and whether it’s self-publishing or hybrid or small press or whatever all those options are – there still is this emotional connection to, “Oh, wouldn’t I love to have a traditional publishing deal? And oh, in order to get that, I really should have an agent. So I want to go out and get an agent.” So there’s this kind of, this emotional fire as opposed to a realistic, practical or, I’ll say, necessarily a real need. But so for those people – those authors – who really want to pursue an agent arrangement, how do they get ready? What are the things the author needs to think about?

David Morris 14:42

Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, I think probably, it’s just really important to, of course, hone your craft – your writing – and to get words on the page. And that’s – you’ve got to have that to really … That’s your foundation; that’s your identity. And you’ve got to continue to develop that. And then it’s doing a really good job of putting the pieces together for a proposal. You know, how hard can you work to equip the agent, so that they can turn around and go sell your – attract a great publisher and sell the concept, sell your platform? So sell your audience on this particular publishing team. Yeah, so I mean, just putting a lot into it: seeing examples of proposals online; looking at templates; getting advice; finding a coach, maybe, who can write can help you get all the right pieces in. How do you write a really good description, you know? There’s so many elements to a proposal …

Boni Wagner-Stafford 15:57

That are unique. It’s a whole new – I mean, there’s so much to learn when you think about writing, becoming an author and entering the publishing world. And, oh, a proposal to an agent is another one of those things.

David Morris 16:09

Yeah. I mean, really, really quick, rundown: description, 250 or 300 words. Treat it like a typical high school essay: problem; thesis; supporting argument with some nice, specific, very brief touch base on an example. And, and a conclusion or benefit and takeaway. So it’s like four or five pieces there. Then it’s things like, table of contents. It’s comparative titles or comps. And don’t pick ones that are like big blockbusters; pick ones that are at your level and hopefully, recent books within the last two, three years because that’s how they make decisions about how books are selling these days, because the market has changed so much. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 16:55

Right. 

David Morris 16:56

Who are your endorsers, if you have them? What is your platform like? And be sure you’ve got a digital platform of some kind, especially, you know, in the spaces I’m in, it’s been so important. And then – and then, what are your creative ideas to market the book? And you don’t have to go into a lot of detail there but you’ve got to show that you’re thinking. You know, you’ve got to have a few bullet points and just – at least – and show that you’re thinking about it. And, and that’s going to get an agent – that’s going to get an agent something to chew on. And then they can come back at you and give and try to elicit more thoughts from you and better – a better quality proposal.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 17:36

So having the proposal prepared is the first thing. Then the second thing is, oh, my goodness, how do you find one? Where do you find one? And I think there, research is going to be key. But where would you advise that people start to look? And what do they look for?

David Morris 17:58

Yeah, absolutely. Just give yourself time and research it. The quickest tip that I think some of us in the publishing industry offer is go look at the acknowledgments page for books that are like your book, authors that are like you. You know, even if it means go into a bookstore. Bookstores are still the best place to go to see comparative titles in a category: a lot easier than Amazon; it’s a lot quicker. It’s a lot more, you know, visceral and sometimes it lists the editor. You know, that can help you understand which publishers to target. Maybe the acknowledgments mentions the editor; maybe the acknowledgments mentions the literary agent. I think that’s a nice little trick and just, that’s where I would do a lot of research. Because authors, really, authors reveal too much sometimes. But I mean, as a publisher – or a publishing person – I’ve always liked it when I was in the acknowledgments. It’s kind of (indiscernible).

Boni Wagner-Stafford 18:58

Exactly. 

David Morris 18:59

And I hear later, too, so it’s like, “Oh, yeah, okay.”

Boni Wagner-Stafford 19:03

Yeah. 

David Morris 19:04

But I also think, you know, attending events: I’d be careful not to attend too many writer’s conferences because those can sometimes be things unto themselves. But the ones that do bring editors to the conferences – if not agents – can be great: can be great to just kind of understand who these people are. Sometimes you’re getting very low-level editors there. But also, I think, really key all along the way – and maybe you’re establishing a list – but you’ve just got to work on your relationships. So other authors in your area: get to know them. Do they have social media feeds? Follow them. Look and see who they’re following. Get to know each other online even perhaps. You know, the more you can create those relationships, you’re going to find out, well who – you know, who is that author’s agent. I just had an author that I signed in the last month or two, recommend someone else to me. He’s put – it’s a good thing for him to help put a friend of his in touch with me. And it’s good thing for me obviously, too. So I think that’s – getting to know other authors is a great tip, if I could say so.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 20:23

And when you are – when you are seeing and doing the research about the agents, you also – I would presume – you want to research, a) whether they’re accepting submissions; whether they’re looking for new clients; whether they work in the same genre; and obviously, if you’re doing your research by going into the bookstore and looking at comps, obviously those are the ones you’re going to find that they work in your genre. I was thinking about there’s the hashtag Manuscript Wish List: M, manuscript. M S W L. #MSWL. So there’s, you know, lots of agents posting on Twitter and Instagram, and, you know, wherever else, using that hashtag. So – and many agents I see, you know, on those social media feeds, there’s a long list of the types of genres that they’re looking for. Or maybe it’s not a long list, but what do you – what’s your experience with that? 

David Morris 21:28

With agents on – in social media? 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 21:30

Yeah, doing the MSWL.

David Morris 21:34

Oh, that’s a new one on me. Yeah. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 21:36

Oh, there you go. There you go. 

David Morris 21:39

MSWL. Okay. I see. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 21:42

Yeah. So then there’s the question of fiction versus nonfiction when you’re working on your pitch. And with fiction, I think agents prefer to see a full, completed manuscript but not so much with nonfiction.

David Morris 22:02

Yeah, I’ve heard the same. But I have not – I don’t have a lot of deep experience with fiction acquisitions. So – and I can imagine that a lot of the editors really don’t have time to read an entire manuscript. Depending on the situation. Maybe – it may be more important at the higher level that they do that, although they would know those authors and their reputations by then. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 22:26

Yeah. 

David Morris 22:27

But yeah, I mean, the way the whole thing is developed, there’s – it takes a while to really see where a fiction book goes and how strong it is as a story. Nonfiction? It’s great to have a sample chapter, you know, and maybe an intro and a sample chapter, because the intro kind of helps: it’s another stab at explaining the concept overall. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 22:52

Right. 

David Morris 22:53

So it has a good verbiage in there that can help an agent and an editor, you know, grasp and understand and then describe the concept. But also a sample chapter just to see what’s the structure of your chapter, what’s your overall tone, when you’re actually getting done there?

Boni Wagner-Stafford 23:10

But otherwise, for nonfiction: not having a completed manuscript, what is it that that agents would be looking for then in a submission if they’re not looking at the completed manuscript?

David Morris 23:23

What are agents looking for in a submission? 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 23:25

Yeah. 

David Morris 23:26

You’re talking about the proposal itself? 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 23:27

Exactly. Exactly. The proposal. Yeah. 

David Morris 23:30

Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, a great working title, you know, is always really key. So that’s the – you know, but don’t ever expect it to be the final title. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 23:45

Right.

David Morris 23:46

Or at least keep an open mind. Sometimes, it might even be better to have a more direct and provocative title, even though you know it won’t work in the end. You know, at least people are going to grasp the concept more quickly. And it shows you’re being bold and you’re not afraid to be bold. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 24:03

Yeah. 

David Morris 24:05

Really, yeah, just really good description, target audience …

Boni Wagner-Stafford 24:09

And the platform. 

David Morris 24:10

Yeah, the platform: I hate to say it, but they’ll go right to how many Instagram, Twitter followers? Unique visits? What’s the podcast, if they have one? But I think that it doesn’t matter if it’s big or not. It matters whether or not you have it, it looks good, and you’re trying to grow it. I think that’s what matters more than anything. I mean, we’ve had authors who are – like lifestyle bloggers – who have a big following, maybe even a big email list, but their books don’t sell that well. That’s not a good example, lifestyle, because sometimes those books can sell well but – or let’s just say they’re a musician: that’s a really good example. You know, unless you’re like a superstar famous, you don’t sell that many books at the end of the day. People want to buy your music; they’re accustomed to that. They don’t see you as an author, a thought leader, information gatherer, you know? 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 25:07

Yeah. 

David Morris 25:08

So being a big Instagram follower, like I know – someone I know, I was like, “Wow, that person’s got 20,000 followers when she – her main, her main thing is about makeup.” And, you know, it’s, I’m not going to – there might be the right publisher for that somewhere. But …

Boni Wagner-Stafford 25:27

Yeah.

David Morris 25:28

It’s easy to fall in that trap – and a lot of publishers have over and over and over again – that because of the size of the platform, it’s a great book deal. And then it doesn’t work.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 25:37

Because it’s not the right platform or it’s not the right component of people inside that platform.

David Morris 25:43

Yeah. Are they really content creators? 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 25:46

Yeah. 

David Morris 25:47

You can sit down and read: read 60,000 words of …

Boni Wagner-Stafford 25:51

Right. Because it’s a different kind of – obviously, it’s a different kind of writing than it is to write your three-second social media headline, which you also need to be able to do. So from your perspective – you’ve come from, you know, a career at the executive level inside the publishing industry or on your way through there and now you’re looking for the first time at the world as an agent representing an author or authors – and is there anything that you’re finding at this juncture that surprised you?

David Morris 26:30

Just that how – how segmented the world is and how the big publishers are just getting bigger and fighting for more of the top stuff and there’s more scarcity at the top. And how the lower-level authors, new authors are being more ignored. But I’m also seeing that there’s an opportunity there. Because it means that, you know, if you develop your audience, you don’t have to worry about those gatekeepers. And in today’s – with today’s technology, the DIY route for doing a book is a lot easier than it’s ever been. It takes work; you need to get help; you definitely don’t skimp on editing. But you can, you can get a lot done. I had an author – I was talking to someone the other day, he said he did, he sold 2,000 copies of his book: total self-published job. And there were some mistakes there but man, he …

Boni Wagner-Stafford 27:30

That’s fantastic. 

David Morris 27:31

I mean, he made a lot of money just on 2,000 books. He made a lot. And he was like, “I want to go to a regular publisher and get a really big advance.” And I’m like, “Dude, with the number of books you sold there and the money you made, you’re not going to get a better deal.”

Boni Wagner-Stafford 27:44

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

David Morris 27:47

I mean, that’s really interesting. That really blew my mind.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 27:51

So, and this touches on – we’re just wrapping up but I won’t take too much more time – but this touches on something that we touched on the last time we spoke, which is who is developing our next voices? If it’s, you know, the big publishers are getting bigger, there’s more scarcity at the top, but that used to be the role of the publisher: they had the entry-level authors; they develop them into midlist and some of those went on to be stars. And it was the publishing – the publishers – who did all that. And they’re – nobody’s doing that. We’re now doing the, you know, the entry-level authors and moving into midlist, it’s like, “Oh, it’s our own responsibility now.”

David Morris 28:34

Yeah. You need curation, you know? 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 28:38

Yeah.

David Morris 28:39

And there – I mean, I think a publisher – a traditional publisher – still, probably the best thing they still offer are editors who know the content and are really good at editing it, helping you shape it, make it compelling. So I think that’s one place to start: is finding a really good, experienced editor. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 28:55

Yeah.

David Morris 28:56

But I do think there’s a lot of indie imprints: they’ve really grown lately. There’s a lot more – you know, be wary, be a little bit wary of, you know, the – obviously, I mean, I actually think self publishing where you pay to get published – pay to play – it’s stigmatized but it shouldn’t be.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 29:12

Right. Exactly.

David Morris 29:13

So many healthy ways to do that. But, but a lot of those aren’t necessarily curating still. So like an indie publisher – that small, scrappy, where you know the publisher, and maybe they’re the ones acquiring, you know, I think some of those folks are people like me, who’ve been in big publishing as it’s done and so much consolidating ... 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 29:36

Yeah.

David Morris 29:37

And they’ve got the skill set. So I would keep a really big open mind to see if you can find some people like that.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 29:44

Yeah. And you know, there’s Ingenium Books and you: your Hyponymous – I always forget. Hyponymous Publishing? Correct me. 

David Morris 29:53

I call it Hyponymous Author and Publisher Consulting. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 29:58

I just love the name. And so I want to make sure that people can find you in the show notes. I will put the link to that site – to your site and yeah, obviously Ingenium Books for nonfiction but we come from different – come yeast these roles from different spaces in the world. I want to …

David Morris 30:22

Yes. You would be one of those people that would – that brings the curation. I left that out.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 30:26

That’s okay. Yeah, we do curate; we don’t accept everything and some of the things that come across, we would accept them and we don’t end up taking them on for a number of reasons. But anyway, agenting, how to find an agent, whether you need an agent, what to do when you’re looking for one: it’s been a fascinating conversation. Illuminating. And I thank you so much for taking the time and joining us, David. 

David Morris 30:52

You’re welcome, Boni. Thank you. Appreciate it. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 30:56

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