Author Spending: When, What, How Much? With Roseanne Cheng

Introduction 00:05

Welcome to the Empowered Author podcast. 

Discussion, tips, insights and advice from those who’’ve been there, done that, helping you write, publish and market your nonfiction book. 

Being an author is something that you’ve got to take seriously. 

I’m proud I’ve written a book. 

What does the reader need, first? What does the reader need, second?

What happens if you start writing your book before you identify your “why”? What’s the problem with that? 

You’re an indie author, you take the risk; you reap the rewards; you are in charge of the decisions. You’re the head of that business. 

Every emotion you’re feeling when you’re writing is felt by every other writer.

The Empowered Author podcast. Your podcast hosts are Boni and John Wagner-Stafford of Ingenium Books.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 00:59

The intersection of money and authors is littered with confusing road signs and paved with uncertainty. Well beyond, “How much can I earn once my book is published?” the issue of money and authors is something we must all address and make sure we’re in the right lane for where we’re headed with each of our books. Today, I’m happy to welcome Roseanne Cheng back to the Empowered Author podcast. Roseanne is a former high school teacher and publishing marketing director, who is now cofounder of a company also named The Evergreen Author. And I say “also” because she has written and published a book by the same name. Roseanne, welcome. 

Roseanne Cheng 01:40

Thank you for having me, Boni. It’s so nice to be with you. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 01:43

And talking about money. I mean, is there anything more important than talking about money and with respect to authors? And I would say, probably a million things but that’s what we’re talking about today. 

Roseanne Cheng 01:55

Yeah, it’s the thing, right, isn’t it? 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 01:58

It is the thing. And so most often when we think about money and authors – and I don’t know about you but most of the authors that we speak with at Ingenium Books, at some point in time, are like, “How much money can I make when my book is published?” And that’s a very good question, which I’d like to come back to at the end. But there are questions of money that I think authors would be well advised to consider much earlier in the process and not just think about money related to once the book is published. How about we start there?

Roseanne Cheng 02:38

That’s a great idea. Yes, start at the beginning. Because that is where it begins.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 02:43

That is where it begins. Now, there might be the conception – and it may be it’s a misconception – out there that the only time an author has to actually spend money is if they are self-publishing or working with a hybrid or partnership publisher. But I don’t believe that’s true. I think that depending on an author’s goals, even if they are to be – and end up – traditionally published, that there is going to be some requirement for money. Can we start there? 

Roseanne Cheng 03:09

Oh, absolutely. Yes. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 03:11

So tell me, where might an author need to part with some of their money in a traditional publishing environment?

Roseanne Cheng 03:20

Yes. Okay. So I think that a lot of this boils down to creating a book that you are proud of, that you can stand by for the lifetime of your writing career. For some authors, they can do that with zero financial investment. Others might need to take part in a creative writing class or download some sort of cool, fancy software or take some sort of online course. These are – I don’t know what the answer is because every person and creative is different. But I will say this is where it begins: where an author starts to realize that the creative process requires investment of some kind. Whether it’s monetary – at the beginning – or time, that investment is what you are putting toward making your work something that you can stand by for the lifetime of your creative career, right? So all that being said, there’s no guarantee. Like if you go – if you take an online course to become a realtor and then you become a realtor and then you start making money off of that job, you can see very tangible results, right? But in a creative career, you’re taking a chance, right? So – and we all have to come into it with that mindset. And so I just think, you know, I’m a pretty simple person when it comes to money, as you’ll see, as we’re talking through this. You have to only make the best, right decision you can at the time. And so if you are the type of, you know, money is probably – unless you’re rich and then you’re probably not even listening to this podcast, right? – but if money is something that you have to think about as part of your creative process, then just do what it takes to get to the next step: your next goal. And if you are a creative person and you need to put in some sort of financial investment to learn your craft best, then do that. That is part of it, right? That leads into the sort of the business of being a writer, which is this idea of an author platform. So people throw out that word all the time. But an author platform is really your way of reaching people based on who you are, right? And what you write. So again, a lot of authors feel like, “Well, I don’t, you know – I, my book should speak for itself.” Well, maybe. But probably not: not in this oversaturated market. So that also means that there’s an investment. You might want to invest in a really nice website. You might want to invest in, you know, a subscription to MailChimp, so you can start an email list. Maybe not. But I think that there’s a mistake that happens if an author feels like, “I’m only going to create this book and then put it out into the universe and hope for the best around it.” A lot – and that’s a different conversation – but money does tie into this because you are putting your – you are investing in this product. And it’s not just the book but it’s your creative process as well. And if you’re going to pitch your book to a traditional agent and hope it gets picked up by a traditional publisher and you make millions of dollars, part of that pitch process is that platform that you’re investing in. So, you know, anyone who’s just sort of stepping back, getting a little bit unemotional about the creative process – which I think is really important when you’re talking about money – all of these authors out there that are bestsellers and their work is out there and they’re just, I mean, it looks – they’re, you know, front row or the, you know, the front bookcase at Barnes and Noble and they’re making tons of money: don’t mistake that to think that they have not put in any investment to get to that point, too. Does that make sense?

Boni Wagner-Stafford 07:35

Yeah, makes total sense. And, you know, it just – you had me thinking about all the steps in getting ready to publish, regardless of what publishing route that someone – an author – would want to go through with their, even if we just take the manuscript. So at what point – or how do you, how would you recommend that an author think through some of the questions and answers within themselves to figure out, “Do I need to invest in getting some professional input into my manuscript?” How would you advise somebody think about that?

Roseanne Cheng 08:25

This is my favorite question. Because it means that the author has to get real with themselves and put away any false humility or any of these weird pipe dreams that they are somehow going to magically be transported onto Oprah’s couch to talk about their book and get real for a hot second and just say, “Can I stand behind this work? Is this book something that I am willing to get real vulnerable about and put out into the world?” And the answer is, if you’re not willing to get real vulnerable about it, then save all of your money. Don’t spend a dime on an editor. Don’t do anything else. Just write for yourself and enjoy that process. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 09:20

And don’t publish.

Roseanne Cheng 09:22

And don’t publish. And that’s great. That’s a wonderful – creatives should create. The creative shouldn’t always sell, right? So that’s fine. But if you can have like – I can only speak from experience here because I think especially women have a hard time with this: we have this really – we’ve been conditioned to think that, “Oh, I’ve created something. And what makes me think that I have, you know, just the chops to put it out there into the world? Who do I think that I am?” Right? No one’s going to hold your hand and every morning, wake up and tell you that you deserve your – you know, your book is good. No one’s going to do that. Whether you – no matter how you publish. You have to be able to stand behind that book, no matter what. So that’s how you know: when you can have that, when you can literally look at your book and say, “You know what? Yes, this needs work. Obviously, I’m not the perfect writer. I would love to have editorial input. I have no idea how to design a cover so I’m going to have a professional do that.” Of course. But at the end of the day, you have to say, “You know what? This book is good and I want to see it through.” Then, you know, it’s time to start making some decisions around money.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 10:37

Let’s pause for a moment for a message from our sponsor,

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Boni Wagner-Stafford 11:11

So the desktop publishing and self-publishing has been an incredibly powerful and, I would say, empowering revolution. It has also resulted in – I forget what the recent stats, the most recent statistic available is: something ridiculous like 300-and-some-odd million ISBNs in a single year issued. And I think that was like seven years ago. And I’m totally off the top my head. And I’ve probably got the stats all wrong. But the point is, there are a ton of books flooding the market that are self-published every day. And if you choose to publish – self-publish – a book that you have not invested any money in getting professional help, what’s the risk?

Roseanne Cheng 12:04

The risk is that you’ll never create again. And that is – that’s a tragedy to me. So, you know, you don’t have to look all that hard to find examples of authors who got to a point where, “I want to see this book published. And I’m going to just slap it up on Amazon and hope for the best.” Right? You don’t have to try really hard to find those books. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 12:29

Yeah.

Roseanne Cheng 12:30

And when I see those books, my heart breaks. Because I think for somebody who’s maybe outside of the business of the publishing or just doesn’t have an appreciation of how hard it is to write a book in the first place, it can be funny, right? There’s like blogs dedicated to like making fun of people like this, right? To me, it breaks my heart in a million pieces because it’s the author who got to that point that, “Yes, I want to do this.” But – and probably in all likelihood, they have been so overwhelmed with all the options and have been fed a bunch of garbage about how easy it is to just, you know, “Use this template and throw your book up there and see how it goes. And you don’t need an editor; it’s fine. You know, it’s – I’m sure it’s fine.” You know, that mentality is going to make it so their book is – languishes forever and they will feel unsuccessful. So I can’t think of a worse fate for a creative person, to be honest.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 13:36

Yeah. Kind of demotivating as opposed to motivating.

Roseanne Cheng 13:38

Oh, yeah. I’ve seen it. It’s not fun. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 13:41

Yeah. Yeah. Me too. So what are some of the other things – and maybe we can go into a little bit more detail in some of the more interesting ones or obscure or I don’t know, whatever we feel like going deeper into – but some of the other things that an author would consider spending money on in the process of – let’s stay on the prepublish side of things because we’re going to go to the post-publish side in a moment – but getting themselves and their book ready to publish, what are some of the other things that can be invested in?

Roseanne Cheng 14:18

So I would say it starts with the goals, right? So if your goal is to get your manuscript ready to pitch to agents, then I’ve seen people invest in, you know, maybe they’ll take a really amazing class at a, you know, a creative writing type of studio, right? In Minneapolis, we have an amazing place called The Loft, where people could go and, you know, they take an afternoon class and you learn from other people. You could be part of a group that does that. You could go to some sort of workshop. I think these are pretty minimal investments, to be honest with you, and I think they can really pay off in the long run: maybe not because your book has been edited but just because you get a better education of what’s out there. And that’s, it’s an emotional roller coaster, right? Because you’re like, “Oh, gosh, you know, there’s so many books out there. And then what am I doing?” And that’s all part of this process, too. So I think, I think it’s pretty minimal. You know, and then we both know that no matter how you publish your book, you’re taking risks either way and you’re, you know, it’s about relationships, is what I’m trying to say. So the investments are really around making the right relationships with people. So you can not only pitch your book but even if you don’t – maybe you go hybrid or maybe you go indie – you get into trusted relationships with people who are going to help you along the way. That is – and again, these are just, these are small steps. You don’t get too far ahead of yourself; you just start with your goal: “Okay, well, my manuscript is done. My goal at this point is to make it as perfect as possible.” Okay, then let’s start making some relationships with some editors. Let’s figure out how to do this. Like let’s figure out a way to get to that next step. “Okay, my next step is to start pitching to agents.” Okay, maybe I’m going to invest in this class that teaches me how to do that. Or the software that helps me keep track of everything or this, you know, ghostwriter who’s willing to draft my pitch for me, right? And there’s no, there’s no checklist. There’s no like, “Don’t forget, you have to spend these things.” Every author is going to be different in their comfort level and all that stuff, which is fine. You just, goal by goal, and you go one step by step.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 16:39

And it could take as long as it’s going to take.

Roseanne Cheng 16:43

And that’s the hardest one, right? Because everybody’s impatient. Everybody thinks once they get to – they finish writing their book and it’s so hard and you’re like, “Okay, I’m ready. I’m ready for the good stuff.” And then you’re like, “Oh, but it’s just beginning. It’s just beginning.”

Boni Wagner-Stafford 17:00

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So then there are the things like editing and – and you mentioned the relationships with editors. And I would say, my recommendation is that even if somebody is pitching to an agent, that they may not – you know, again, depending on where they are in their author journey and if somebody knows within themselves that, “Listen, I know my manuscript is good enough. Or it’s good. Or maybe it’s very good.” And then you might be safe pitching either to an agent or direct for a, you know, traditional publishing deal without having any other professional eyes on it. But for most people – most authors – I would say that there’s always benefits to a little bit of editing investment, regardless of the route. And then there’s layout. And you mentioned softwares. And this is – there’s a distinction that I’d like to chat about just for a moment between – it’s related to the author goals but it’s between what the individual is planning to do with the fact that they are publishing a book. Are they becoming – is the fact of being an author going to be – or is it – their full-time career? Or is it something they’re doing on the side? And that has implications for money and other investments. And it might not be what you think; it might be counterintuitive. Can we talk about that for a minute?

Roseanne Cheng 18:40

Of course, yeah. I would say this often when I was the marketing director at a publishing house where I worked with hundreds of authors. And I would say that my job was really to meet the author where they were personally before I could give them any sort of plan around how to get their book out into the world. And the plan has nothing to do with genre or how beautiful the cover is. My plan was always around this human being in front of me, who either is retired and has nothing but money and time on their hands versus this is a you know, a single mom who wrote the book while her kids were sleeping in the mornings and has no disposable income. They could have written the exact same book and I’ll give them two totally separate plans. Because that is – I’m just dealing with the reality of their situation, right? And so that’s something that we talk about a lot at Evergreen Authors, in the book too: is that there is no – anybody who tries to sell you on a, “Here’s your checklist and here’s what you have to do,” is really not taking the human component into consideration here. And I’ve had plenty of authors who’ve said, you know, they put in an investment and they say, “You know what? I will feel successful if I sell 100 copies of this book. I will feel – that will be success for me.” Then let’s make that happen. Let’s meet that goal and then go to the next one. I’ve met with other authors who have said, “I want a passive income for the next 10 years on this book. I expect to be a millionaire after the second year.” You know, like, they’re very clear on these big, lofty goals. Okay, if those are your goals, here’s what we have to do to work toward them. Two very different marketing plans and two authors who have the potential to feel equally successful, might I add, right?

Boni Wagner-Stafford 20:38

Exactly. Yeah. And two authors who may have taken exactly the same route to get to the point where they are beginning to market their published book. 

Roseanne Cheng 20:51

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And in fairness, I just want to say the marketing game changes daily, if not hourly. There is always something else out there: a new shiny object; Facebook changes their algorithms; so-and-so has a new course out. There’s always something when it comes to money and authors. And I’m not just talking to self-published authors – although they, I think, tend to fall most victim to this – but I know plenty of traditionally published authors who are like, “Oh, I thought my publisher was going to take care of my marketing plan.” And like, I burst out laughing. I’m like, “Unless your name is Stephen King, no one’s doing your marketing plan. You have to put in some investment here.” And the nice thing, I think – you know, it really depends on genre, right, but we talked about this in the book too – is, if you, our big message is always that the book is an extension of you and not the other way around. Right? You’re not going to ride on the book’s coattails. It’s the opposite. And so that means that you have a chance to expand how you are reaching people. The things that you invest in don’t necessarily have to do with the book: maybe they’re an investing in you, right? I know, so many people who have said, “You know what? I just, I want to do a speaking career around this book.” So they invest in, you know, joining Toastmasters and learning all these, like really great tricks around public speaking. And that’s an amazing investment for their book. And again, not the path of every author. And that’s great. That’s wonderful.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 22:29

Yeah, we have to talk about vanity publishing. I hate even using the word. But there, there are so many choices out there for authors in terms of when they decide they want to invest in some help to get their book published. And, you know, lots of vitriolic comments in writer’s and author groups and, you know, about not falling prey to these vanity scams. And one bad piece of advice that I hear and see a lot is, you know, you should never part with any money when you’re an author; that money always should flow to you: which is just not true. But so let’s talk about vanity publishing. How do you suggest that an author can take care of themselves and not fall victim – I’m using air quotes; you can’t see me, those listening – but victim to a vanity publishing – more air quotes – scam?

Roseanne Cheng 23:33

Yeah, yeah. So I think that – this is another thing that breaks my heart – I think that authors are tending to get a bit smarter around this. I think that it’s, the last few years have gotten better. I – so there’s two pieces to the question that you asked. The first one I just want to address. If you’re in a writers group and these writers are telling you that money is always going to be flowing to you and if that does not happen, that you are somehow not a real author, I would advise that you leave that group because that’s a really toxic kind of mindset. And I – and it’s only something that we apply to writers. If an artist goes out and they invest in some amazing new paints or equipment or whatever and they use that to create beautiful art, that’s wonderful. But if somebody goes out and says, “I’m not really good at book design and I’m going to hire this amazing person to create” – a designer for them and that’s somehow selling out, that doesn’t make sense to me. So I think that anyone out there – and again, like this is, I get a little bit emotional about it because it makes me angry – if somebody is looking to create a beautiful book because this is their life’s dream and they’re going into a situation where they’re getting a product that is going to bring them joy for the rest of their days, how dare somebody come in and say that, “Oh, you, no, you’re not a real author.”? No. Forget that. Right? At the same time, like with anything, there’s scams out there everywhere, right? So the times when – and here’s what I’ll say: I feel very strongly that your intuition is almost always going to be right. So I remember my first book, I was pitching it to agents and I was getting a bunch of feedback and I was talking to some different publishers and just trying to get educated: I would get these emails from people who were like, “Oh, we saw your book and we want to publish it. And, you know, let’s – here’s the contract: sign here.” And I’m like, “Hmm, that feels a little fishy to me. I’m not sure how I feel about that one.” And then like, you look at the website, right? You look at – they’ve got this website out there and like, they’ve got all these books that are like the, “Ooh,” right? You don’t have to dig too deep to know where the scams are. And I will say that if you are looking to self-publish, or just in general or in this field, if anything feels off, it probably is. That’s the best advice that I can give: if you are looking – if you’re spending more time on this vanity publishing site, trying to figure out if it’s legit or not, than you are creating, just move on. There’s other options for you. Listen to your gut and don’t do it. But it is oversimplifying but …

Boni Wagner-Stafford 26:47

No, no, but I think that’s really important. And again, you know, the whole notion of – the whole purpose of this podcast is about empowering authors to make the right decision for them. And just because a right decision may be investing in some help along the way, does not make it wrong or necessarily bad or invalidate your worth as a creator. And I think that’s the best advice, I think, I’ve ever heard, is follow your intuition. If it doesn’t feel right, it’s probably not right. So we – I just can’t believe how much time has gone by and I wanted to talk about marketing budget. We did talk a little bit about marketing and the notion of, you know, a marketing plan for one author with the identical book is going to be different from another author. But let’s talk specifically about how much should an author consider that they will need to invest marketing their book?

Roseanne Cheng 27:48

Are you talking about for the first month? For a year? Or … 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 27:50

Sure, yeah. This is, I guess, a good question. So let’s say the first month and then the first year because, I think, in my experience, authors are often surprised at how long the timeline on marketing activities to support their book can actually carry on.

Roseanne Cheng 28:13

You will be spending marketing dollars as long as you want to be selling books. So if you’re done spending any marketing dollars, you’re probably done selling books. That’s just sort of how it is, right? Unless you’re famous or unless you’ve got something else going on – which is great and a lot of authors do: creative people. But I will say for the average author who’s just, you know, hustling, you will be spending. Now that spending is not, does not have to be astronomical, right? So I would say, I mean, everybody wants a number. And it’s very difficult for me to give that number because I’ve worked with authors who are like, “I’ve got 300 bucks for the rest of the year. That’s it.” Well, let’s make that work. Well, how can we stretch this 300 bucks? What are we going to cut? Where are we going to focus? Where do you want to focus on selling books? Can we do an Amazon ad campaign for three months and see what happens? Right, you might make quite a bit of money on those three months. And so after that, maybe it’s $500 that you want to spend for the next, you know, three months or so, right? I also have had authors who mistakenly think that they can hire all of this out. So they hire some sort of like publicist that promises them the world and under delivers and then they’re 20 grand in the hole after their first, you know, 12 months of being a published author. And, oh, that’s a whole different conversation and a very sad one when I have to have it, but that’s – so we have a chapter about this in the book but we talk about getting real about money. And if your marketing budget is zero dollars, it’s okay. Find – blogs are free. You can write in a blog for free. Look – take a, you know, a free YouTube tutorial and how SEO works. Set up a free Pinterest business account as an author: cross-post there. Bring people. You can market your book for free. You can also spend tons and tons of dollars too. So, you know, this is sort of a roundabout way of saying that I don’t know the answer to how much you should spend. But I would say, you know, when your book comes out, assuming that you are, you’re serious about getting this out there, you really care about feeling successful – whatever that success looks like to you – just sit down and get honest about, you know, money, with whoever you share money with: you know, with your spouse or whatever. Be like, “You know, part of my dream is getting this book out there. I’m going to take this course and learn how to do Amazon advertising.” Great. “And then my budget is, you know, I’m going to do $100 a month in advertising for three months and see what happens,” and then go from there. So again, it’s like, it’s the same thing: like goal after a goal; that small goal after small goal instead of just, “I’m chasing Oprah’s couch and I will do anything it takes to get there.”

Boni Wagner-Stafford 31:20

Right. And you’ve talked about a couple of things. And we didn’t – I didn’t call this podcast “Investment and authors”, I called it “Money and authors”. But I think that it’s also not directly proportional, the relationship between the investment of time and the investment of dollars in marketing because, you know, if you have a zero marketing dollar budget, for sure, you will be putting more time in on the investment side of the ledger but it doesn’t – it’s not directly proportional. If you have a ton of money, it does not mean you won’t have to spend any time. 

Roseanne Cheng 31:53

Absolutely.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 31:54

There’s always time and engagement.

Roseanne Cheng 31:56

Yes. If you really want an authentic connection with your audience there is, you know, I’m sure there’s robots out there cranking out robot manuscripts and I don’t know why anybody would do that. I mean, I think part of the joy of being a creative is connecting with your reader, even if it’s just, you know, reaching out to like see what they liked about – you know, reading your reviews and using those reviews as something that helps propel your next book or whatever it is you’re working on next time. Like, that’s the good stuff with the creative life is connecting with people. And you can find ways to do it that that are free. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 32:41

Right. So before I wrap us up, is there anything that we didn’t get to that you have a burning desire to share on the topic of money and authors? 

Roseanne Cheng 32:55

Yes. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 32:56

What did we miss? 

Roseanne Cheng 32:57

Well, I mean, we could honestly talk about this for like five more hours. Everybody, all, you know, when people come to me – I’ve been in publishing, my first book came out when? Nine years ago. Or – eight or nine years, which is like light years in the publishing world, right? 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 33:11

Oh, yeah. 

Roseanne Cheng 33:12

So anytime I work with an author, either as a ghostwriter or in publishing or in marketing, they’re always like, “Okay, how much, though? How much? How much to, you know, make the book?” And I’m always like, “You have no idea how difficult that question is.” And I’m not evading it. I’m just saying that you can publish a book for free: you could literally go to Amazon right now; use their templates free; your book is up there. And that’s great. You can – I have also known authors who’ve spent $40,000 on their first print run of these beautiful, you know, hard bound books with jackets, and full cover color and all that stuff. It boils down to your goals. And you have to be honest about what your goals are. And I can’t remember if we talked about this last time but I think that it bears repeating if we didn’t – or if we did: a lot of times authors think they’re being honest about their goals. I will hear them say like, “Oh, my goal. My goal is to make, you know, affect people’s lives and make and change their lives for the better. If I just reach one person, I will feel successful.” And in the same breath, they are furious because they went to a book signing and they were expecting to sell 150 books and they only sold 50. Or they keep reaching out to their local TV station and they can’t get on TV. And I have had many hard conversations where I’ve said, “Your goal is to be famous. Now that is a different goal.” So I want you to articulate the exact – there’s nothing wrong with that. But I’m just saying, if you’re coming to me, saying, “I just want to help one person,” I promise you, I can do that for you for free. I can help you get your book to that one person. And all it is, is a matter of just making a really great relationship. But I don’t think that’s your real goal. And so it’s just, it’s just a matter of being honest, like truly being honest. Because the money doesn’t lie; the data doesn’t lie. You know, the creative process, we’re all over the place all the time and inspiration comes and goes. Money does not. Money is going to be – it’s real. So it starts with honesty. It starts with real goals, working toward one or two goals at a time. And make it, make them attainable so you can feel successful. Okay, I could go on and on.

Boni Wagner-Stafford 35:45

That is fantastic. Love it. I love it. Love it. Love it. Roseanne Cheng, thank you very much. The Evergreen Author is the name of your company. It’s also the name of the book. Roseanne mentioned it a couple of times during the episode: the book is called “The Evergreen Author”. You can find it wherever you buy your books. And we are going to have Roseanne come back in – well, I don’t know how long from now but in a little bit – and we’re going to talk about holiday book sales. But that’s coming up. That’s coming up. So Roseanne, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your deep experience and wisdom and we will talk to you soon. 

Roseanne Cheng 36:28

Wonderful. Sounds great. 

Boni Wagner-Stafford 36:35

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